Curse

ZenMonkey · Apr 20, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

WasAGuest -

Yes that can be a cause for concern. But in past games there was a huge imbalance between pvp players. Certain players would camp lower players for the "fun" of it. But with Factions stlye of equalizing players I see it as less a frustration. Unless you cant get a group of guys you enjoy playing with together.

Omega X · Apr 20, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Ack I love the PvE vs PvP arugments...

This game is PvE and PvP both. The developer in the radio interview even said some of the new mixed PvE and PvP content was to help because there aware the Pve "Only" and PvP "Only" don't get a long at times.

This game allows you to do both. PvE Only, PvP Only or to get the full experience the game can offer you can do both.

Assuming that this is true, then some PvErs were correct in their complaints. Anet was really trying to coax them to PvP. I feel silly defending Factions on that reason now.(assuming that its true)

Mordakai · Apr 20, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

Assuming that this is true, then some PvErs were correct in their complaints. Anet was really trying to coax them to PvP. I feel silly defending Factions on that reason now.(assuming that its true)

Omega, I would invite you to listen to Jeff's interview. He claims to be a mainly PvE guy, who just likes to explore and play at his own pace. But, he also says there's staff members who are hardcore PvP only guys. They have the same... discussions as we do here.

So, yes, unless Jeff is just outright lying, they do intend to satisfy both camps. (Technically, you don't even have to play PvP to get exclusive access to town's Elite missions. You can earn Faction through PvE only quests, so it could be possible...)

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Ack I love the PvE vs PvP arugments...

This game is PvE and PvP both. The developer in the radio interview even said some of the new mixed PvE and PvP content was to help because there aware the Pve "Only" and PvP "Only" don't get a long at times.

This game allows you to do both. PvE Only, PvP Only or to get the full experience the game can offer you can do both.

Agreed, but if that was the answer for my question, my question was more poorly worded than I thought. My bad. hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

Yes that can be a cause for concern. But in past games there was a huge imbalance between pvp players. Certain players would camp lower players for the "fun" of it. But with Factions stlye of equalizing players I see it as less a frustration. Unless you cant get a group of guys you enjoy playing with together.

Bummer, I rambled rather than make my question more clear... umm, how bout this way?

If my group is trying to get to a goal within a competitive mission (note: I'm a PvE players that despises PvP and competitive play, and here I am, attempting to adapt my play style and play the game fully without my self imposed limitations) is the entire instance a free-for-all killing zone with goals put in place rather than number of kills? Are there safe zones? Do you have to engage the other team? Are there... well, easier, how should it work? Cause in the FPE, it didn't seem to work and in all honesty, was one of the worst game times I had in GW.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

or is it Cooperative? Where's Loviatar when you need him! Community would also work...

- probably trying on new asbestos jammies

- Gotta love his since of humor. It is competitive from what Jeff Strain has said in the past, but his definition of it was... well, odd if I recall. I'll have to go find it, cause it didn't even mention anything about PvP in his statement.

ZenMonkey · Apr 20, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

WasAGuest-

I could only assume it would be much like WOW.

In WOW there are contended areas and if your on a pvp server the oposite faction can atack you at will and you can atack them at will.

Now within these areas are many missions. You go about doing your mission and you might run into oposition in which case your fight or flee.

Kind of sounds similiar to what factions is including from the statements made. Wont know till i play it! =)

In terms of people dropping out. Unfortionatly you have to put up with that in all kinds of games. It definatly sucks and its not very fun. Might come down to having to join a guild and guild being honorble enough not to drop. Some guilds become more established and kick out members that drop frequently. THen those guilds play each other. All though that wont do much for the casual player I guess =(

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Ooops, I stand corrected. GW is a CORPG. Jeff Strain as simply said it is not a traditional MMORPG, rather it is a CORPG. The "C" meaning cooperative or competitive. However, the "official" FAQ does state they (Anet) prefers it called competitive.

linkies:

wiki
faq
CVG

Good news for people wanting new character slots to play with! They are up for purchase starting this summer; see guildwars.com for the info.

Edit: can't spell, can't add... I'm in trouble. lol

mohh · Apr 20, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I pre-ordered it, but don't plan playing it as much as I did the original. I hardly play any anymore, so I don't see myself buying GW3 at all. Frankly, I've lost all interest...

Omega X · Apr 20, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

WasAGuest-

I could only assume it would be much like WOW.

In WOW there are contended areas and if your on a pvp server the oposite faction can atack you at will and you can atack them at will.

Now within these areas are many missions. You go about doing your mission and you might run into oposition in which case your fight or flee.

Kind of sounds similiar to what factions is including from the statements made. Wont know till i play it! =)

Actually IT DID happen in the FPE(atleast what I experienced). Whenever you got close to the line with Kurzick as a faction, Luxon ambushers would popup every so often like the Oni did and would say something like "you can't take us all". And then promptly get their butts kicked. IF you were Luxon favored, some other type of jackal looking monsters attacked.

But those were NPCs and not players. And I don't know if its going to be in the final game.

MSecorsky · Apr 20, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

WasAGuest-

I could only assume it would be much like WOW.

In WOW there are contended areas and if your on a pvp server the oposite faction can atack you at will and you can atack them at will.

Can't be like that... instanced zones, remember? There are missions where you have to race the opposing faction to a goal, and part of achieving that is to slow them down while working to succeed yourselves.. but there's hardly any ganking going on. The mission where you escorted the jade carriers is a prime example.

So no, could never be a WoW or Diabloesque go-outside-and-get-ganked world.

Thank Baalthazar.

WasAGuest · Apr 21, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Can't be like that... instanced zones, remember? There are missions where you have to race the opposing faction to a goal, and part of achieving that is to slow them down while working to succeed yourselves.. but there's hardly any ganking going on. The mission where you escorted the jade carriers is a prime example.

So no, could never be a WoW or Diabloesque go-outside-and-get-ganked world.

Thank Baalthazar.

The reason I thought of it, was that while I was in Jade, and everyone but me (on my team) dropped, I sat there talking to the other team. They didn't come after me, so I thought I might have been in some sort of safe zone... either that or they just didn't see a point in coming after just one person. hehe

Thanks for answering - this is a good community of players

Side note: Escorted..? that's what I was supposed to be doing? lol - yea, I'm good at those competitive missions alright...

I'm gonna go sit in a dark corner for a bit.

Amok · Apr 21, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alana

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse here, but I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you play the same game for a while, you will get sick of it. Well, yes. That happens with every game. Guild Wars is no exception. Although it's been a year and I still play the game every day... having a good guild and friends makes that better. Regardless, Chapter 2 is not an expansion in the traditional sense of the word. It is an entirely new game with content equal to the original game. I'm surprised to see all of the negative comments in this thread, honestly. I pre-ordered the game as quickly as I could, and I am very excited to play it.

I hope to see many of you in Factions next week!

I never said Factions was an expansion, but it certainly is not an entirely new game in the sense of what you would experience if you were to buy a new game by another developer. Guild Wars is still Guild Wars. Those of us who have played Prophicies will be familiar with the play style, graphics, skills, game engine and so on.

Far less than half my guild (over 60 members) will be buying factions for the reason I stated before, they've played enough Guild Wars and moved on to other games. I would say that's pretty relevant to my point, which was that many people who bought Prophecies will not be buying Factions.

But that's not to say that Factions will not sell better than Prophecies did, because there will still be many people who will purchase both chapters (myself included) and many who will buy Factions only.

master_ranger_matt · Apr 21, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

I'll pay the price only because it will be worth it with my existing account. I would not buy factions seperatley because I don't know if there's enough factions only content to make it good enough for a stand alone game. I liked ANet's idea with the whole thing, i'd never seen that before, I just think maybe more content should be added to factions if it is going to stand alone.

Dove_Song · Apr 21, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

It's not like WoW where both sides are completely cut off from one another. In WoW the two sides can't even talk to one another in the same language.

Also WoW has a few area's that are "disputed" (depending on your server type) and the rest of the map is static.

From what we understand nothing will be static in this game. Nor will you be "killed on sight" in certain area's just because you do not have enough faction with that race.

All in all it sounds more Like FFxi Online's conflict system. Where every week, points were asaigned to every area baised on the activities in them. To see which of three faction "controled" the area.

This effected very little really....cost you a bit more gil to set a resurrection point, You could teleport to outposts of controled territorties, and a few other things..but nothing earth shattering or game breaking. Half the time you didn't even notice or care.

Anet is good at making things that are pretty much just "bragging rights".

The amoutn of content is "roughly the same" according to interviews. If you basing you Opinion of content on the Preveiw event, you should know we started 1/5 of the way through the chapter and they removed the ENTIRE SECTIONS between the port city and the two faction towns.

Think of the Marketplace as the "Lion's Arch" and the two faction main cities as "Dorknar's Forge" and you get the Idea.....

If your still skeptical take a look at this map that contains ALL the areas: (it's a huge JPEG so it's best to rick-click "save as" then view it with a program you can zoom with.)

http://www.guildportal.com/ContentCo...t ionID=76754

also keep in mind that does not show all the hidden area's like UW, SF, FoW

Braggi · Apr 21, 2006, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

Interesting points but doesn’t MMRPG the first M for Massive imply that a large group of players have to work together to meet a certain goal? <snip>

IMHO to make an mmrpg an mmrpg you either need to include stuff that takes a large group effort to unlock certain areas (the war effort in wow for instance) or have some kind of pvp function. There has to be some kind of large interaction between players.

Otherwise it’s an MRPG.

By this definition GW is massive, because giantic numbers of players are fighting for favor to unlock areas for their region. Factions seems to take this interaction even further.
I tend to ignore the ANet marketing speak. Of course they want to coin a new term (CORPG) to avoid stupid comparisons with existing MMOs.

In WoW (except for the AC event) battlefields are meaningless. You farm rank like other people farm items, but this doesn't change the world at all. [like for example unlocking an outpost in the contested territories would, if you keep winning the regions BF]. There are world events and world named bosses which 'could' be included in GWs instanced system, if design deems them desirable.

Its interesting that in a similar discussion in riverside (the "game world" thread), we were more concerned about the "persistent" part of wiki's MMORPG definition. I argued that the world as a whole is persistent (because prices, favours, rankings persisted) even though every zone is instanced. Its even more massive that WoW, as WoW has countless world instances (servers), and I can't interact across server borders.

The actual distinction is then, how many people should be able to interact at once? Ok, in WoW I can have the AQ event with hundreds of players from both factions in a big communion. X-roads or Tarrens Mill raids with dozends of players. [I remember halloween events in UO, with ghosts and undead raiding the save city zones, those were the days

]

But then in practice my computer goes catatonic because he can't handle the number of objects and effects. In WoW the usual group size is five which is all a casual player ever needs. Computers with less than 1 MB may stutter horribly when entering the main cities (like 20 frames per minute or less...)

So the question of which game is more massive is academic (though interesting, I admit). In GW 100 players can interact at the same time, but only in settlements (removing equippment and effects for performance), and I can meet anyone playing GW ingame. In WoW I must be on the same server to interact with someone, but then I can have 40 player raids and hundreds of players fighting at the same time (which my comp can't handle).

As mentioned above I see instancing as a technical (and design) detail to reduce grieving and improve performance, not genre defining.

@Mordakai:
WoW is actually two different games in one. Leveling up is casual, because leveling contains the reward in itself and there are lots of motivating quests. No need to ever group with more than 1 or 2 people. Also you don't bother with equipment too much because it gets obsolete fast.
When you hit 60 and the EP bar stops moving, you basicaly start throwing time at items or ranks (aka grinding). This is where the game gets hardcore for most players, because the best rewards can only be gained withing huge, organized, effective groups. When you just hit 60 you're not competitive because you don't have the items that incredibly increase your char's performance. And the roleplay part is also, erm, negligible for most players, even on dedicated RP servers.

A_Muppet · Apr 21, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

I agree with this one. If GW continue like this for couple chapters, I really doubt it can keep people.

Play style is everything. So far, the play style have virtually not changed at all. Assassin's combo system is only half new, as the combo system is new, but melee isn't. Ritualist, unforunately, is just a merger of ranger ritual and casters, nothing new there.

I suppose they can pull something really new out in the later chapter. A class that completely don't rely on anything we have now. If human get too boring, then it would be a good time to add in new race that is completely different in terms of play style.

Also, if the to-do-list only continue to increase instead of decrease. Well... you know.

All in all... Considering this is ONLY chapter 2, we have yet to see anything.

Personally thou, I just think ArenaNet made a big booboo to release chapter 2 so late. It kind of killed the some bit of freshness chapter 2 would have been able to give, if it were to be release earlier.

I think the real underlying problem is quite straightforward. The players.

If you go to the temple of ages when you have favour it's always trapper groups, 55 monks with a SS necro for the uw. With this fissure, it's always '2 warriors, one stance tan for book trick, SS/BR necro, ele nukers, healer monk and a bonder monk' and of course, the barrage teams.

Already a class is (very often) ignored, and mesmers never get parties easily. (despite the fact they can demolish things with alarming ease)

What I'm trying to say is I think the underlying problem is the fact that these sorts of parties work so well. If the new areas have enemies and situations that dramatically reduce the effectiveness of these usual groups and makes the mesmer (and the assassin and ritualist) desirable choices, then we'll hopefully see more diverse parties, and hence there will be more choices. I found the tombs really good fun at when they were first corrupted, because a team with not just monks, warriors and eles that echo casted meteor shower, while it did okay, didn't seem to do as well as a group with a necromancer, ranger and mesmer in the group in instead of all those eles. It made the game fun again, because you suddenly weren't playing the game I'd been playing since 'tanks, monks eles' parties had become the staple party for the game.

I think this might be relfected in factions with the Assassin. After all, if the enemy assassins can just blink to the spellcasters, straight through the warriors who's roles have become 'be a meatshield and bog them down while the ele echo casts meteor shower' then that's really going to change the dynamics of the game.

WasAGuest · Apr 21, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Thanks Dove_Song. Is that the entire map? Seems much smaller than I imagined it would be. Not a knock against it since the content is "smooshed" in there tighter - could be good if you like running all over creation less.
On a really positive thought, look like there's room for more Chapter "tie-in's" (later chapters) as the map suddenly stops in the south...

The question I now have, is this: I count (and this was done quickly and we all know I can't add - heh) 18 or so actual missions on the map (didn't count the ones marked such as Jade). How many of those 18 are actual co-op missions, non-elite? Anyone have that info yet?

MSecorsky · Apr 21, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

The reason I thought of it, was that while I was in Jade, and everyone but me (on my team) dropped, I sat there talking to the other team. They didn't come after me, so I thought I might have been in some sort of safe zone... either that or they just didn't see a point in coming after just one person. hehe

Thanks for answering - this is a good community of players

Side note: Escorted..? that's what I was supposed to be doing? lol - yea, I'm good at those competitive missions alright...

I'm gonna go sit in a dark corner for a bit.

Yeah, the primary objective was to capture the jade quarries and protect the jade carries while they returned 10 jade bundles to your base. Now, if you were losing, you could always kill the enemies carries to slow them down. But then, they can do that to you, so you need to protect yours as well as stop theirs...

That's the mission I truly came to appreciate snare trap. Nice, quick 5 energy AoE cripple.

But it required true teamwork to be effective. Some folks would do their best to defend while others went on the offensive. Some would also word at capturing the enemies Jade quarries to slow their production and boost yours. It was a true PvE/PvP blend, and even a 95% PvE person like myself had an absolute blast. It actually was easy to see the other team as intelligent NPCs. Ah yes... NPCs... you did have to fight them as well.

Good times... good times...

MSecorsky · Apr 21, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Muppet

Already a class is (very often) ignored, and mesmers never get parties easily. (despite the fact they can demolish things with alarming ease)

Without highjacking the thread, I just want to point out that my mesmer (Canus Minor, if anyone sees me...) does FoW nightly and it doesn't take long to get into a group. Someone commented a couple days ago in ToA how rare it is to even find a mesmer there. But I have a nice damage/interrupt build that does it's own energy management nicely, and Shatter Hex is a beauty skill with the book trick (Plus Energy Surge... that armor ignoring AoE damage of over 200 pts to everyone attacking the bookie in less than three secs...).

But really... any groups that don't want a mesmer in FoW I probably don't want to group with in the first place. The ones I do run with, we do well. Three shards in one run last night...

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread topic.

Mordakai · Apr 21, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Just to add another point to the "competitive" vs "cooperative" debate:

There is nothing in Guild Wars forcing you to be competitive. As mentioned, there are no areas (not missions, mind you, but like whole areas) where you can be ganked by other players.

In addition, if you do decide to enter a competitive arena, where you can be "killed" by other players, there is no permanent penalty. No XP loss, no items loss, not even time loss, as you can just be ressurrected, or failing that just drop an re-log in (although I don't encourage dropping a match just because you are losing).

Anet has made PvP a painless as possible, IMO, while still keeping it interesting. Which, when you think about it, is a huge achievement in itself.

WasAGuest · Apr 21, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Yeah, the primary objective was to capture the jade quarries and protect the jade carries while they returned 10 jade bundles to your base. Now, if you were losing, you could always kill the enemies carries to slow them down. But then, they can do that to you, so you need to protect yours as well as stop theirs...

That's the mission I truly came to appreciate snare trap. Nice, quick 5 energy AoE cripple.

But it required true teamwork to be effective. Some folks would do their best to defend while others went on the offensive. Some would also word at capturing the enemies Jade quarries to slow their production and boost yours. It was a true PvE/PvP blend, and even a 95% PvE person like myself had an absolute blast. It actually was easy to see the other team as intelligent NPCs. Ah yes... NPCs... you did have to fight them as well.

Good times... good times...

I obviously didn't have the fortune of grouping with you or anyone that had a clue... ie, were as clueless as I was. heh - I probably would have a greater feel for the missions if that had been the case. No use crying over spilled milk though.
Would you mind a PM about that mesmer build you are using?

Further adding to Mordakai's post: I agree, Anet doesn't so much as force a play style on anyone, they do however have a sly way of pushing one into doing something to gain what a player might want as a goal.
As always, read that for what it is. Players' personal goals (not game dev goals) and players' play styles. The elite missions are the best example right now. PvE wants them, in some cases badly for whatever their reason (mine is challenge - I have a monk in fire isle now with only 9 deaths... see I still play

). But for PvE players to get those Elite missions, it's gonna require a lot of something that they don't enjoy. Whether that be farming, PvPing... whatever. Bah, that brings us back to the "work" feel of "earning it"... so... yea. No need to beat that poor horse again.

Edit: I admit I have, and will in the future, used the word "force", but that's mainly for lack of a better word. For me, forcing one to play a way to gain something is not literaly forcing (physically or mentaly), it's more a "force" due to lack of alternative options to gain a goal set by myself.